Panelists
Rand Fishkin Founder, Moz
Lisa Myers Founder & CEO, Verve Search
Wil Reynolds Founder & Director of Digital Strategy, Seer Interactive
← All talks
Turing Fest 2017
Panel Discussion: Rand Fishkin, Lisa Myers & Wil Reynolds
Rand Fishkin , Lisa Myers , Wil Reynolds
Auto-generated transcript - may contain errors. Tap a timestamp to jump the video.
Okay everyone, so I have jumped in to moderate this session because I'm awkward like that. And they wanted me to, So we have a few questions that we prepared that you guys are going to discuss. We're going to open up to Q and A from everyone about ten, eight minutes left.
So please think about what you want to ask these amazing SEO and search experts now going into paid search experts. So let's start off with the first question. I really really like this question. So given four ads on top on SERPs and so many SERPs features, is SEO growing or shrinking in opportunity?
Ryan? Yeah. I mean I don't think I don't think the PPC parade is ending. I think that paid search still has a lot of room for growth, but I don't I don't see SERP features or pay per click cannibalizing what we call organic search today.
First off, I think SERP features are just another form of organic. I think that if you're not if you're doing SEO and you are thinking about how do I rank, how do I get traffic, you now have to be thinking about SERP features.
And when I say that I mean, you know, knowledge graph, I mean images, I mean video, I mean local results, I mean, you know, the the answer box at the top, I mean featured snippets, recipes if you're in that world, whatever it is, schema dot org, all those kinds of SERP features.
And I would also say that paid search, so for example, what was that eighteen months ago that we went from three ads at the top to four. And so we watched through the click stream data that we get with with jump shot, we watched whether, you would see a shrinking share of searches going to organic versus paid, and it dropped by what did I say this morning?
Like a tenth of a percent. A tenth of a percent. So you're like, oh no, search grew ten percent overall this year, but we lost point one percent to Google increasing the number of paid ads. So search only grew nine point nine percent.
I think that still means lots of opportunity for SEO. Think from what you saw today, my approach is a little bit more like go where the money is. Right? Like look at how this like if you were to take the search results and just look at the pixels of the results and how many pixels are dedicated to different things, it tells you a little bit about where Google is going.
So if it is, again I agree with Rand in the sense that if you're seeing a lot of one box answers then you need to go there. I think the hardest part, to be honest with you, is it's gotten so complex that I think it's very hard for an individual to understand how to optimize one box.
People also ask video, oh, well, video show up. So I guess I got to now start optimizing for YouTube. How do I optimize for product searches? How do I optimize for regular searches? So I think more than ever, teams are becoming more important because then you can have people focus on certain areas and then they can collectively bring that together because no SERP anymore is like, oh, it's all organic.
It's like, well there's organic and paid, so you need an organic team and a paid team because they're going to have different tools to pull and now there's one box, so now who's studying that for me? And you can't take your eye off the ball for regular organic because that's still boat tons of traffic.
So I think it's just a matter of building a really good team to be able to study all those things individually. Cause it's getting almost impossible to get really good at all those different parts and to be able to optimize them all well.
I think Google is basically investing in job security for all of us. They're like, let's make this complicated as heck so that all the SEOs have tons of work for forever. Yeah. Thank you. Voice. Like it's another one. Right? You think like voice.
Okay. Who's a who's a voice search expert? Nobody. You know, image image search. Like you've seen some really interesting data on image search. Image search is huge. I'll I'll show you my session later. Oh, okay. I didn't mean that. Yeah. No. Sorry. Teaser. Teaser.
So with with that actually happening and paid search getting more and more off the property, do you think, like you have both SEO and paid search teams, do you think that the kind of skill that is needed and the kind of mindset that is needed for different do you think they are different?
Do you think that now you've gone into the paid search, do you think that people the paid search people are very different to the SEO people and so on? Or what makes it similar? I think they're so different. I think they're very different.
So I've been saying this for probably six years, I have the same example I use all the time, which is paid search people to me, really good ones, they're more like your accountant. Like if your accountant files your taxes or tells you, there's a big difference between you made one hundred thousand dollars and you made one million dollars.
It's only one zero. It's huge. PPC people have to have a certain amount of creativity but a certain amount of exactness because they make one mistake on one decimal point, they blow the budget for the month and they're fired. SEO people were more like poker players. Right?
So PPC are more like creative accountants, like Enron people. And Let's hope not. Hope not. Right? And and SEOs are more like, are you bluffing Google? Like, I you're never gonna show me your hand. So I'm always trying to, like, figure out, are you BS ing me?
Or like, let me pull my own data and, like, I might not have that good of a hand, but I'm gonna bluff you anyway and I'm gonna win. So SEOs to me are much more like poker players. We're much more comfortable not knowing all the different levers that are pullable and making guesses, whereas PPCers are much more about exactness.
So I think that those are very different skill sets and I think it's rare that you can find somebody who can be really proficient at both. We can play in both, but to get real you don't want me managing your PPC campaign. I'm all over the place.
You see how many typos or errors I had in my presentation? Right? Like, oh, why is this word capitalized? I don't know. Like, you can't have people like that running your PPC. So I think that even though I play in it, you do not want me running your campaign.
Okay, so the next question, is Amazon Alexa taking search market share in e commerce? Will they be an ad platform player? So I don't think they're taking much right now, at least not away from general search. I'll show you some stats later, I mean, Bing is still bigger than Amazon is, despite everybody talking Amazon all the time.
I think where my fear would lie is in the penetration of Prime. So I think I think when when you see, you know, a subscriber to Amazon Prime, you basically see that default behavior shifts from, hey, where can I buy this thing and what should I buy to Amazon is all I think about?
Right? Amazon is my default. And if they if they can encourage that behavior and create that as a just, you know, fundamental mindset. I mean, Will, were talking this morning about like, will next year everyone who's an Amazon Prime member get an Echo Dot shipped to them and now, oh, look, anytime you want anything, you just say, Alexa, I kinda feel like Indian tonight.
Right? And boom. It you know, they take care of it. So that's where I'd watch the risk, but I'm not I'm not seeing it right now. It's funny, like, I do I do believe that eventually they should just they'll just probably end up giving them away or they'll they'll discount them for you to give up all your damn privacy so they can hear everything you say.
And like seriously, think about the Kindle. For those of you that have a Kindle, remember when you had the option like, oh we'll give you your Kindle for twenty dollars cheaper if you're willing to have an ad on the homepage. Well, did you read the entire user agreement when you said yes to that?
To save twenty bucks, you basically gave up tons of your privacy, but it's twenty dollars so now you can buy an extra pint or two. So to me, think Amazon's already collecting data on how low can we lower the price on something and subsidize it for ads.
Those books are ads, so I think and I would love to see Amazon come full force with the ad market because right now it's like Google, Facebook, man, where are going to spend your money? Those two places. You hear Snapchat's not doing so hot, Twitter's not doing so hot.
So I think more people competing on ad platforms is actually a good thing for the industry. However, paid search marketers are like, damn it, because the switching costs of going from a oh I have to set up an Instagram strategy, now I've to figure out what all my options are on Snapchat, it's actually a lot.
So that's another issue as we get more diversification, it's good for the industry, but actually then it causes agencies to either squeeze margin or they're trying to charge clients a little bit more to be on all these platforms that aren't totally robust yet, which usually doesn't work for the client.
I I think it's scary too when when Amazon is the ecommerce search platform in addition to being the seller, you you get into a scary situation where you're like, oh, I made something awesome. I made something new. I'm selling it on Amazon and then Amazon's like, that is awesome and new.
Thank you. It's mine now. Right? And I hate it when Google does that. We all hate it when Google does that. Amazon, I think that risk is even higher. Yeah, it'll interesting to see what happens with Amazon. It's funny, I wonder how that would be interesting but you cannot get this data, not easily.
Prime people, like when I first got Prime, before I just started going to Amazon to search for stuff, my muscle memory was still to go to Google, but my click through rates were completely different when I recognized a brand. That's all of us. That's human nature.
So I would Google, I'm looking for a new fifteen inches monitor, and I'd be like, Amazon. That's why I'm really afraid of click through rate curves, because I actually have watched people go through SERPs and what they say they do, they don't actually do.
So surveys get it completely wrong, and you watch somebody be like, oh yeah, I just clicked on number six first, why? Because I have Amazon Prime, you're like, damn it, click your rate curve. So it's tough. So that leads on to how will voice search impact SEM pay per click?
Tiny question. So voice yeah, tiny question. So voice search, in my opinion, does not impact SEO and pay per click other than increasing the volume of overall searches. But but it changes two things about it. One, it adds a new dimension on the types of searches we perform, because I think voice a lot of voice searches are for different things than what we use typed searches for in the past.
And Perna, I know you've talked about this quite a bit and like shown shown a bunch of wonderful examples of how voice search is almost a fundamentally different type of use. Right? Just like the mobile device changed how we interact with technology because we have a camera in our pocket with GPS.
I think voice search changes a lot of like what do we do with it. But I think the voice search that shows text results, great. That's just more things to SEO and PPC for. Fine. Voice answers, that scares the crap out of me.
It should scare the crap out of everybody in here because voice answers, I don't think it is worth anything to say, you know, if somebody searches for something and and Alexa or or Google or Microsoft respond with, this answer is via Moz. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
I don't think Moz gets a fraction of the benefit that they would get if you clicked on Moz's website. Right? Because then you can cookie them, and then you know you have them in your analytics, and now I can retarget you and do all these things.
I can own the the experience, but the search engine owns the experience in voice answers. That's what scares me a lot. I think if we see cannibalization of SERPs, of of typed SERPs and visual SERPs from mobile or desktop in voice answers, we we can sound the panic alarm.
Haven't seen it yet, but if I see it, I'll hit the alarm. My one of my takes on voice, you know, it's like when Rand talks about the device changing the search behavior, look for the word near me, and that's all you gotta do.
Right? The minute we got these things in our pockets that had GPS in them, you could now do a near me search for an ATM or a local pub, but before that you had to put in the zip code, right? So think about it, he's right, like you're like, yeah I do near me searches, right?
But that only happened when you had a device that was strong enough at the GPS level to be able to tell you where you were. And there's so many searches now where you don't even have to add near me. Oh god no. I'm pretty sure he wants it near him.
Exactly, exactly. So I always say be careful investing a lot of time and money in building content to answer simple questions. So I'm always going after like what stroller should I buy? I was up to three am one day looking at YouTube videos trying to figure out what kind of stroller I wanted to get my son.
That's such a complex query that I'm like, oh, that's where I want to go because you can't just give a voice answer like December thirtieth. But my clients who had like, what day is this holiday or that holiday and they used to get traffic on that, if you find an opportunity to exploit, you better exploit it fast Because if you can ever have something that's answered by voice response, I think in trouble.
I think that you have a very short and limited life cycle. Look for more complex queries where you have to give people more information than something they can just get an answer back on their device. So when you say voice answers, do you mean the AI part of it?
So basically, you don't even look for a car insurance. You will already be renewed. Would you like to renew your car insurance? That's it. Mean, that's that's spooky. I'm that's like even one step further than what I'm talking about. Right? But which is basically, Google, what are my options for car insurance in Edinburgh, Scotland? Yeah.
And Google says, well, there's three major providers and these are these three other providers and they're reading off a featured snippet from someone who's answered the query, but that website never gets the benefit, they never get the cookie, they can't provide the affiliate click, they don't get any revenue from it, You know.
Yeah. That's when it goes Yeah. Very complicated. Okay. So next one. What will work long term in content marketing and content strategy? I promise you I won't add in anything yet. Well you'll add in a whole thirty minutes in a few minutes, right?
Just answered it. I'm starting to try to direct my team in a direction where we look for very complicated answers to things. And then we use things like People Also Ask and related searches to figure out what are people highly likely to search for after they search for this word, and then how can I go back and make sure that my content is answering all those questions because then I get less POGO sticking back to Google?
Google is putting in People in related searches because people search for one thing, just get that answer, go oh, now I'm more educated, so now I need to ask this question, oh I'm more educated, now I get to ask that question. If you follow the trail of People Also Ask in related searches, you can start to build your content in a way where as somebody is scrolling down, they're like, oh, now that I know this, I would have went back to Google and searched for that.
And it's like, well how do I know what people are likely to search for on Google next? People Also Ask and Related Searches. It's a great way to start building out your content to continue to answer those questions in a way that helps people solve their problem.
And that keeps them from having to go back to Google and keep asking the question, which keeps them from finding your competitors, keeps them from looking at more paid search ads, and keeps them on your site. Yep. I think the other thing we were trying about on this is interactive content.
If you can create content that is more than just, here, read this long thing, or here, look at this long scrolling page of visuals, But rather give us a little bit of information or play with this you know slider or graph or chart and then we'll customize it for you.
I think that form of content marketing is really powerful and that's stuff that Google just doesn't offer right in their search results. I'll show some more about that in my presentation later. But I think interactive content has got a very strong future in content strategy.
And would you say that I think probably in the audience there are different views of what content marketing means. So in both of your answers we have kind of covered both of them. The content marketing that is content strategy related being able to create more content that then gives you more traffic and so on.
And then content marketing that makes people stay on your page, but then there's also And come back to that's off the page. So I suppose it's important to know that that could be loads of different things depending on who you are. Yeah. That's a great point.
I mean, off-site content marketing I think is gonna Well, let's say, God forbid, net neutrality falls in the United States. I think content marketing on other people's websites will be everything because most Americans won't be able to visit most websites. And so you'll only have this small group of sites that anyone will be able to visit and that's where every brand will have to do all their marketing.
So you know your Facebook page, your Google page, that's gonna be the future for a lot of small and medium businesses. But yeah, you're right. There's a ton of what we call like barnacle SEO or barnacle content marketing where you go to somebody else's ship, attach yourself to it and leverage their visibility.
That is a powerful part of that. Great. So we're gonna open for questions soon. I just have a couple more. So, how is IP address personalization and IP sniffing affecting web marketing? Yeah. What should marketers be doing with this data? Will, you got to tell tell tell them what you told me about like like like Clearbit and and Leadfeeder and all that like Alright. This is ridiculous.
So I have a developer working on something for me because I it's just fun. So first thing that I did, so I was really pissed because I was like, come on guys, we got to be able to move faster as a company on certain marketing initiatives and one of my alumni sent me a link to this tool called Leadfeeder, a group out of Stockholm, I believe, and what they basically do This is like Stockholm.
Yeah, once you hear about this tool you might like these guys. So what it does is you just give it your Google Analytics login, so it's very easy for anybody in this room to do. The minute you do that, it then starts to show all the people that visit your website and what companies they're from.
It also shows you what pages they visit and you can create all kinds of filters on like 'show me only people that visited this page on my site', that come from these types of companies' etc. Not too big of a deal. I think a lot of us have seen those kinds of tools, this one's really easy to implement.
What's really cool is then by just copying your API token for Salesforce or Pipedrive it can actually then say oh that person is a past client or current client, they're currently in your pipeline, so I know when I send out proposals, I'm actually able to see how long it takes for a client to typically come back to my website and then they start looking at the team members of oh well who's going be on my team?'
and I see them actually click on those people and I'm like 'ah interesting', so now I'm seeing a behavior that says once I send out a proposal with a team, those people go to my website and they're actually looking at those team members.
So now if those team members are speaking at conferences, I can retarget that person specifically and show oh this person speaks at conferences' which is going to make the client feel more confident that that person's really smart. So you start thinking of that opportunity, that's just the beginning of it, that's simple.
What we're trying to do is work with AdRoll right now to build into their API so that we can advertise with one API, Facebook, Twitter, and Google on the GDN, because what I can then do is I can do things build a library and a matrix of all of our content.
So let's say a company hits us up, a SaaS company hits us up, and I go okay well Maaz, and this is all going happen, we believe, automated, Maaz hits us up, so Maaz is on our site but they don't fill out our lead form or anything, It automatically pulls their market cap, how many employees they have, all that information on them, pulls all their executives, pulls their address and everything.
So if I'm speaking at a conference that's near them, it can automatically start making sure that they start seeing ads about that. What I also then love is we're building a matrix of where are all our case studies, so then I get to see oh somebody from Moz came to our site, they went to this blog, but then they also went to this thing about our case study section, they looked at these three SaaS companies, great.
And they looked at SaaS companies that had a similar market cap as them, great. So then it goes into AdRoll and shows ads to people at Moz automatically with case studies specifically for companies that look like them. So like that's what we're trying to build out right now using a combination of Clearbit, Leadfeeder and Adroll and when it works or if it doesn't work like you know if it doesn't work I'll tell you, if it works I'll also tell you.
And Lisa you were saying that you can do some of this with LinkedIn as well right? Yes I use this in LinkedIn quite a lot. It's basically just looking into history if you have a premium account. You can see who's been on there, you can also see what companies they come from.
So especially like LinkedIn is amazing for any kind of like sharing of your blog post and your slides and stuff. Because you can literally get two and a half thousand people within the first twenty four hours. If you can get about twenty people liking the post within the first ten minutes, it just goes mad.
And then you can look into the analytics of that and then be able to see Who? Who exactly who's been on there, what company they're from. And that's when I then just add them on LinkedIn and say, I'd really like to have London come in.
And they're like, oh, what a coincidence. Lisa, I was just thinking about you. It's a great It's a recruiting strategy. Oh, yeah. So you post something, you can tell the unsatisfied employees because they're all over all your posts about your culture. So if I recall correctly, don't quote me on this, but if I recall correctly, you can place a one pixel by one pixel iframe of your LinkedIn profile page onto your own website on a particular page.
So then if people visit that page, you can see who has visited your profile like the individual person. I think they just enabled Did they disable that? Just I think they just enabled a legitimate pixel like a like a JavaScript related pixel. So we just installed it on our site three days ago.
There's a story on TechCrunch right now. So one of our people sent it out, I'm like, let's dogfood it ourselves. It takes a little while to aggregate, so I'll check later this afternoon. Yeah. Yeah. Tweet it. So it's aggregating right now. But supposedly, they're able to tell you the roles of people visiting different pages on your site.
So you put in the page you want, and then you put the tag across the site, and it'll be like, oh, this percentage of people that visited this page on your site were this role in their company, their companies were typically this size, so we right now don't have the data.
It's under the demographics tab and it's installable via Google Tag Manager. So you go to LinkedIn, you get the pixel, you install it via Tag Manager, you tell it two or three pages you want it to give demographics on, and then it's been thirty six hours for us and it hasn't given us any data yet but then once it comes in I'm assuming that that's what they're going to show because we get enough traffic to show that data.
I want to see that. I'll give you a login. Great, super interesting. So the last one before our question is if you're building a company or joining one, what do you need to understand about how the business is financed? So this is particularly like VC backed versus Bootstrapped versus Angel, etcetera.
Yeah. So for anybody who was in like the the tracks yesterday, I saw a lot of the questions were around like, what kind of company should I join or build or think about? And Will and I have very strong viewpoints on this. I have weak viewpoints on ****.
Alright. Yeah. I'll let it slide. So I think that that one of the things that is very frustrating as an employee or a founder is understanding how these business models operate. And I I do think this is worth your time to investigate before you go work for one of these companies in house or as a consultant Or as an agency because what they're trying to accomplish is fundamentally super different.
Right? So a private company that's privately owned, that's bootstrapped, that doesn't have investors, Their goals are basically whatever the current, you know, owner slash CEO wants to accomplish. And hopefully they'll be transparent with you about what those are, and you should figure those out.
If you have angel money, there's usually some expectation of a return on that investment, and and VC is the same. There's only two real ways to get a return. You sell or you go public. I think it's called floating on an exchange, right, in the UK.
There's no other option. So you have to be aware that that that is gonna change everything fundamentally about what your work means, what your compensation looks like, what the culture and values are gonna be, what the trajectory is like, what they're gonna demand from you and not.
And I don't think I I realized this and internalized a lot of it when I started Moz and, you know, and took and took funding. But it really is if you don't ask those questions and you don't understand the model of how venture works, of how angel investment works, of how it means that like, you were complaining to me.
You were like, what the hell is going on? How did Giphy raise a hundred and fifty million dollars? A hundred and fifty million dollars for ******* Giphy. Giphy? Are you like, Will's like, what the hell is going on with Giphy? And I had this like, no no.
But venture capitalists do not get penalized for making wrong bad investments. They get penalized for when they miss out on a big one. Right? That is so the model is like completely different. So Giphy looks like this. Right? The curve is going way up into the right.
They're they've got the hockey stick. Therefore, maybe it's a shark fin. Right? Maybe it's gonna fall right back down, but your penalty is if you don't invest, not if you do and they fail. And so it's a very different yeah. Different mindset. I don't know.
Do you wanna speak to a little bit of the bootstrap thing? I just don't like the to be honest with you, I put enough pressure on myself, I just couldn't imagine the pressure that you've been under and other people have been under. I understand it, but to me I'm a low level gambler And I don't mean I play craps on the side of the street, I I go to the casino and I actually play craps.
But I'm usually the kind of guy that if I play and I lose a couple hundred dollars, but I had fun and I got a couple of drinks, I'm so happy when I leave. And I feel like VCs are like the person that comes to the craps table or roulette table and they're playing with your entire car payment and it's just fun for them.
Like, dollars twenty thousand on this hand of blackjack and you're like, I'm going to take my twenty dollars in chips and go home. And I feel like for VCs, it just seems like they've already made so much money that this is kind of like fun for them, which means they can be like double the company in three days or we're gonna ******* fire you.
And it's like, okay, and then you're off running around to make some rich people richer. And then I think with things like liquidity preference, which I never understood **** about, you start being like, wait, wait, wait. So if we do do this, you mean I still don't get any money?
You just stay rich? And they're like, yeah. That's the whole thing. We get you thinking you're gonna become the next Zuckerberg and you're never gonna do it. And it's like, well, thanks. Now I'm burnt out and I got nothing to show for it.
And then for you, it was just like a roll of the dice one night in Vegas and jump on your private jet and go do it again next week. I mean, got to love the model. Right? Like you have to be invent you have to love you have to be willing to take the risk.
You have to be willing to say, I think I can be the one in a thousand who is, you know, Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg or whatever it is. Right? And that is extremely unusual, but there's a there's a certain type who that attracts.
And if you're that person, great. Know that model. Go for it. And if you're not That's true. Back away. Right? There's a lot options. There's options for you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We we're gonna have to open up to the floor now if that's alright.
Great way to Thank you. Sure. Any questions? And do we have someone running with microphones or am I doing a run-in the scope? Have Barry in the front. Barry, great. Start with Barry. Hey, Ron. Hey, Will. I'll keep it clean this time. This is actually back down to earth.
I love the investment venture capitalist topic, but that's an entirely different topic. I want to talk about knowledge graph answers, direct answers, cause we see them pop up for all kinds of weird queries now, and that doesn't necessarily make sense to have a direct answer.
But I've got a theory about this, and I'd love to hear your thoughts about that. I think it's Google training its its voice answer software. So that it tries out all these different knowledge graph answers. The feedback box is quite prominent now, and it's asking us to basically train its systems to give better voice answers when people are using voice Google Home and other things like that.
So what do you think about that? Yes. So I think that's I think that's true, but I think it is not only true for the instant answers. I think that's true across everything that Google is doing. I think the whole search engine result page right now is a big test bed.
And basically Google is trying to see what gets clicked on, what satisfies users, what do people click and pogo stick back on, right. Do they click a result and then they get to your website and then they say, like Will was showing this morning in his presentation, oh you didn't show me pricing.
I'm going back to the page. Well guess what, now you're falling to page two, page three, page four. I don't care if you have the links, I don't care if you have the anchor text, I don't care if you have the keyword targeting, I don't care if you're brilliant at every part of SEO, you didn't satisfy the query.
And so I think that is definitely I think the whole thing is a training ground and voice search is absolutely part of that. I mean doctor Pete showed in a featured snippet analysis on Moz that that voice answers tend to be the featured snippet, right, or taken from the featured snippet.
I think that's true in both Google and Bing and so I would suspect but I think that's happening throughout the SERP. And I don't have much to add to that. Ran's much better at answering that, but somebody once said to me, they're like, yeah, that's what they did with authorship, remember?
And I was like, you *** ** * *****, you're right. They got us to basically go out and figure out what authors look like and they went, yeah, we're gonna get rid of that now, we thank you, you know, I think that they do a lot of that smart.
SEO is the bootloader for Google's machine intelligence. We run off, oh, we got to do this thing. Okay. Any more questions? Sorry? Any questions? Alright. Hands up. Hands up. No? No one? Yes. Okay. One over here. Data nerd. Yes. Data nerd. It's probably old news, but what's your thoughts on AMP?
To me, it feels a little bit like a Trojan horse. Right? It's kinda Google rolling in this. We're gonna own the experience. We're gonna own all the collection of that that data. To be honest, I I think that for some businesses, it pays to be part of AMP because you can speed up your experience so much, and you can get more traffic that way, and you can keep people engaged with your site.
But to be honest, if if it were me, I would always be trying to find a way that I could be as fast as AMP, right, on my own systems rather than somebody else's. I I think it's quite dangerous to give you know, to give to put that into Google's hands.
They're owning the user experience. Right? They own how the URL bar works. You can't drop all the cookies and do the retargeting in the customized ways that you might wanna do. I I don't love it. Okay. I I think we actually have to we have we have got instructions.
Time out. Time out. On the screen. So I love how you kept making the font bigger. I love much of that. Thank you. I appreciate that. This is hard. Okay. Well, thank you very much, Willemans. It's Oh my god. That was awesome. And Lisa, thank you for stepping in last minute.
That was amazing. Absolutely. Thank you. See you guys there.